Dear Rabbi Shmuley,
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This is a hard letter to write because, more times than not, your thoughts on an entire host of issues are right on the mark. You have earned the admiration of many – because of your vast intellect, your writing capabilities, and your eloquent defense of Torah issues and thought.
The issue now, however, is balance, Rabbi Shmuley. We understand you. We genuinely do.
It is difficult to maintain popular appeal as “Hollywood’s Rabbi” while at the same time being faithful to the ideals, morals and standards of our holy Torah.
Your recent article published Oct. 15 in the Wall Street Journal about homosexuality, however, is something that really needs to be reexamined. It needs to be re-examined because you have genuinely crossed the line.
You begin with the sentence, “Some people of faith insist that homosexuality is gravely sinful because the Bible calls it an abomination..”
“Some people?” Are you serious? Well, at least your choice of words does give us some insight as to where you are headed. With those words, you have excluded yourself from the vast majority of your people – from Nachmanides to Maimonides, from Midrashim to the two Talmuds, to the contemporary halachic decisors of our nation. The hagaddah states, “Ulefi shehotzi es atzmo min haklal kafar beIkkar.. – because he has excluded himself from the others – he has denied the very essence..” You have sided with the norms and mores of Hollywood – the “I am okay, you’re okay” mentality where everything goes.
Rabbi Shmuley, you sold out your people.
No one ever said, “Hate them.” Heaven forbid. The very words “VeAhavta Lerayacha Kamocha – love your neighbor as yourself” appear in the Talmud in juxtaposition with the command to ensure that an excessive form of capital punishment is not meted out. The message is clear – extend them your love.
We are to love them, the violators, but that does not mean we should tolerate or accept behavior so antithetical to the Torah way of life. This is especially true when it is shoved down our throats daily in the media.
Rabbi Shmuley, how could you? How could you undermine the word “Toaivah” and say that the great expositors of Judaism have taken this word out of context?
This is exactly what you do in your very next sentence.
But that word [“Abomination”] appears approximately 122 times in the Bible. Eating nonkosher food is an “abomination” (Deuteronomy 14:3). A woman returning to her first husband after being married in the interim is an “abomination” (Deuteronomy 24:4). Bringing a blemished sacrifice on G-d’s altar is an abomination (Deuteronomy 17:1). Proverbs goes so far as to label envy, lying and gossip “an abomination to [the L-rd]“ (3:32, 16:22).
Rabbi Shmuley, you have used your G-d given cleverness, your keen abilities with words to chip away at the very meaning of the Torah.
Words no longer mean what they purport to mean. An abomination, a Toaivah is not a Toaivah in your world. You have matired the Sheretz, Rabbi Shmuley – in front of one and all.
And it is done, oh, so very cleverly.
You juxtapose it with non-kosher food consumption. You’ve equated what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein describes as “a direct rebellion against the Creator” with a “harmless” excursion to the local McDonalds. You have compared it with the popular Hollywood practice of serial marriages one after the other and the remarriages too. Surely, those “some people of faith” are just so, so, provincial.
But then, you realize that even you can’t go that far..
“As an orthodox Rabbi, I do not deny the biblical prohibition on male same-sex relationships. I simply place it in context.”
Taking innocent life is also abominable behavior. Can we not place that “in context” too? One can hear a mafia don complain, “Gee, you whack one guy – they call you a murderer!”
No, Rabbi Shmuley.
In authentic Judaism our morals, our ethics, our ideals are defined by the Holy Torah itself. We understand this Divine document through the rubric of our oral laws, of the great sages of Judaism throughout the generations. When the Midrashim tell us that the saving grace of a previous evil civilization was that, at least, they never defied G-d so brazenly by instituting marriage between two men – we know where the Torah stands.
The Torah’s animadversions toward a behavior that, in the words of Nachmanides, represent the apex of immorality and societal debasement – are quite clear. The Greek and Roman preference to young men even among the upper male nobility of these societies, a la Hadrian, was condemned by our sages. And strongly so.
But you continue..
“There are 613 commandments in the Torah. One is to refrain from gay sex. Another is for men and women to marry and have children. So when Jewish gay couples tell me they have never been attracted to members of the opposite sex and are desperately alone, I tell them, “You have 611 commandments left. That should keep you busy. Now, go create a kosher home. Turn off the TV on the Sabbath and share your meals with many guests. Pray to G-d three times a day for you are his beloved children. He desires you and seeks you out.“
A very pat solution, indeed. The problem is that, proponents of this lifestyle are exactly that – proponents and open advocates. It is an “in your face” type of approach where they want the lifestyle accepted and advertised everywhere. In Teaneck, New Jersey, for example, the local Jewish paper just recently printed a wedding announcement between two men. They are not merely content to quietly violate this Torah prohibition. Like pork and shrimp at the Reform Rabbis convention in Cincinnati at the end of the 19th century, the complete and utter negation of all that is holy and dear must be advertised to all.
Rabbi Shmuley, if you haven’t noticed, there is a barrage, a carefully orchestrated assault here – and you have played into their hand. They have played you so well. How? Let’s look at your next paragraph..
But with one of every two heterosexual marriages failing, much of the Internet dedicated to degrading women through pornography, and a culture that is materially insatiable while all-too spiritually content, can we straight people really say that gays are ruining our families? We’ve done a mighty fine job of it ourselves, thank you very much.
In essence you are saying, “But can you blame them? We haven’t done any better.. Heterosexuals are just as bad as homosexuals, perhaps even worse. So let’s accept it all and just erase a few of those inconvenient lines in the Torah that don’t fit with the Hollywood, contemporary agenda.”
You are about to help them open the floodgates, Rabbi Shmuley. Next it will be the consensual incest movement, the multiple spouse movement, and who knows what else. You have joined on the bandwagon of “Imagine living in a world where love is denied and rejected” – where decadent form of self indulgence is painted as love and therefore must be embraced. Where sacrosanct institutions that people of faith have always valued are now taken down in the attempt to give legitimacy to movements bent upon destruction of biblical values.
And no, Rabbi Shmuley, we reject your supposition that “homosexuality is a religious, not a moral, sin.” Moral sins involve the negation of human virtue too and the corruption of societal values.
The situation is analogous to someone burning the flag of the United States, Heaven forbid. You could argue that flag-burning is also harmless. Who are you hurting when you have an innocent action between a man and a piece of cloth? The truth is that you are doing immense harm. You are undermining the love, respect, and gratitude that is due our great nation.
The United States was a beacon of light to the world in providing all sorts of freedoms. The other democracies in the world copied the United States. When you burn that flag you undermine the gratitude that our citizenry should feel to the United States. You undermine the love and respect that is due this great nation. And you do irreparable harm.
When the Torah calls such activity abhorrent, an abomination, openly defying these words, re-interpreting their Divine Authorial intent is tantamount to flag-burning. The Torah is a Divine document. It’s mores and ideals are everlasting. What you are espousing may be “feel good Judaism”, but it is a far cry from authentic Judaism.
Rabbi Shmuley, you could have been the voice of Torah. You had what it took. You could have stood up to the onslaught, the attack on Judaism and moral virtue.
Instead, you buckled.
This past article was a distortion, a misshapen, malformed and twisted presentation of the Torah’s view. Those of us who look at the Torah as truly the Divine word of G-d, rather than a superstitious collection of the religious thoughts of a long antiquated society as most proponents of homosexuality do, call upon you to retract your article.
There comes a time, Rabbi Shmuley, when you just have to stand up for what is right.
May G-d give you the strength to make the right decision.
Aryeh HaKohen Katz is a Rabbi and teacher at a Yeshivah in Brooklyn. He can be reached at [email protected]
Great editorial. Shmuley you screwed up here. and u know it.. be a Good Jew and stand up for real Judaism, not Hollywood.
It’s a waste to take to task Reb Shmuley, he is egoistic, and will never admit he made a grave mistake here..
Yasher Koach Rav Katz. Well said.
“Adam….take Eve”
NOT “Adam take Steve”
When R’ Boteach said “some people of faith,” he clearly included not just Jews, but people of many other faiths as well. Twisting this expression, and then accusing R’ Boteach of taking words out of contexts is pure chutzpah. R’ Boteach never denied that homosexual activity was forbidden by the Torah– he merely suggested that people who are gay can still have meaningful Jewish lives, and encouraged people to increase their observance. Rabbi Katz, perhaps, would be much more comfortable seeing people stoned for this violation (while I’d bet he’d be only too happy to attend dinners in honor of a guy who was mecholel Shabbos but still wrote big checks to a Yeshiva). I have to say, having read both articles, I think R’ Boteach’s approach does the Torah far more credit.
Sorry, but R’ Katz misses the point of the op-ed, or maybe not.
His flag burning parallel shows that he does have insight into the issue. We make flag burning into a bigger issue than it really is. We should ignore it rather than try to pass laws against it.
As far as homosexuality is concerned, indeed, acting upon homosexual impulses violates halacha (differently for men vs. women), however, having the impulses does not. We all have impulses to act counter to halacha (yetzer hara). We also choose to accept others despite their acting on impulses. If one can accept those who indulge in “a “harmless” excursion to the local McDonalds”, or those who drive on shabbat, while trying to have them do more within the confines of halacha, one should be able to do the same for a homosexual.
Toeivah does not apply to lesbians, so any argument including that aspect does not hold water as all homosexuals are treated the same way by frum Jews despite the halachic differences.
As for the issue of activism – if the frum community treated homosexuals the same way as shabbat violators or those who eat treif, no activism would be necessary.
R’ Katz agrees, hate the sin, love the sinner.
Beats me why anyone ever acknowledges this guy boteach, he might look like a frum rabbi but there is no normal frum person who considers him even remotely connected to the frum community. He is just like any other scholar jew stating his opinion, which doesn’t affect us at all. Why gratify him with a response?
He has been saying things like this this since he was at Oxford (such as “Nothing wrong with being Gay, it is just that G-d doesn’t want you to do it like not eating cheeseburgers.”). Although the idea that the issue is a chock is ridiculous (since it applies to non-Jews as well, and there is no such thing as a chock among non-Jews).
However, the response here completely misses the mark. Intermarriage is also a terrible aveira, but if someone who is intermarried wants to come to shul, the first reaction is not to exclude him or her until they get a divorce. Sure its a bit different, as the spouse may convert, so separation isn’t the only solution, but I think it is close enough that you have to make a better argument than the disgust of an aveira. All aveiras are disgusting, even the ones that we (religious Jews) do all the time.
Where the article goes off the rails is at the end: “I am in favor of gay civil unions rather than marriage” Either one is a violation of Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, and is an aveira to support.
(continued)
(continued)
The next paragraph doesn’t get any better. Opposing gay relationships is a basic affirmation of humanity over animal preferences. Some have a Yetzer Hara for things that others do not.
It reminds me of a story of the Tzemach Tzedek, where someone came to him with a problem: He doesn’t enjoy learning. The Tzemach Tzedek told him that he is jealous of him, as he has the opposite problem: He does enjoy learning (and this interferes with learning Torah L’Shma).
So we can be sad for the tragedy of being under the grips of such a Yetzer Hara and ask Hashem for mercy for the person so afflicted, but to go along with aveira as fine is a bridge too far.
Rabbi Katz: I agree with you that the gay lifestyle is totally incompatible with the Jewish way of life. So is the overall moral decline of our society. But I wonder how you would counsel a former student of yours who spilled his heart out to you that he was born with an inclination that does not match the Torah. Would you tell him that his life was meaningless and hopeless? Would you tell him that although he was created by Hashem’s own hands in His image, he has no place in Hashem’s nation?
Rabbi Shmuley was obviously confronted with this issue many times. He needed to come up with an answer that would placate sincere individuals who were confronted with this issue. This is the best he could come up with.
Rabbi Katz, if you have a better answer for these people, please share. Do you agree with Yehuda Levine that all gay people should be dumped in the sea? Please enlighten me.
The comparison to the flag is inappropriate;
However, his point is valid.
As G-d fearing Jews we realize that whatever G-d says in the Torah is for our ultimate good. So when He says that the whole idea of homosexuality is osur, then we can’t accept it and tolerate it any way.
As previously stated though, we tolerate the sinner but not the sin.
Rabbi Shmuley’s issue may be that he feels he has to be diplomatic, and cater to everybody. In such a case our morals and the things we have always stood for become blurred.
#7 – ha, ha! I get it! I’m not obsessed with hatred for homosexuals, so I must be in some kind of relationship with another guy! You’re hysterical! Truth is, there’s just one of me, but, on the bright side, nobody calls me “Paskudnyak.”
Hey– just a thought– do you think you might have adopted such a terrible insult as your moniker because you despise yourself for your homosexuality? You might want to see a therapist…. you might be able to love yourself (and maybe a few other people, too!) more if you came out of the closet.
Altough I may not agree with everything in this op-ed I got to say I haven’t read such a good op-ed in a REALLY long time. Yasher Koach!
Well written article but you also need to remember that the word abomination still needs clarity. Would you consider a gentile eating non kosher food an abomination or any other of the “abominations” that the gentile is not required to adhere to. Do you find the actual behavior so revolting? Yet when it comes to homosexuality we are all on our high horses. It appears to be more of a personal revoltion rather than some spiritual sensitivity. Note that the lowliest in society appear to be the most homophobic
Avrohom Avienu, the greatest lover of the human race, greatest teacher of Hashem to non believers, the biggest baal chesed teh world ever knew – told Lovon “Hepored nu meila” . There is a time and place to tell the sinners to get lost. This is one such time. batach you erred. Learn from your forefathers.
I did not read what Boteach said, but increasingly feel that calling him a Rabbi is a Toeiva.
Anyways, I think the problem really is, that we are lacking truthful and legit Torah leaders of today, who could answer for us.
What they answered before still applies, it’s just hard for us to do that.
I wonder, how R’ Soloveitchik, R’ Feinstein, the Kleusenberg Rebbe, the Lubavitch Rebbe Gaonim A’H, would instruct us to deal with them today.
I am certain though, that Boteach should really publish these articles under a new name since he doesn’t have the right to ruin the title and the values a frum, orthodox rabbi still (please G-d) means. The fact he is publishing these pieces under his name and title gives away the real motivation; his taava for fame, money and acceptance.
Ad matay! Meshiach! Ad matay!
One cannot ever give a hechsher on something that is assur. Period. Does that mean that a piece of treif food that winds up in my house cannot be given away to a goy, who may eat it? If someone commits a sin, must he/she be banished from the community and be denied other benefits of the community. Me thinks that not. But we still have no right to accept what is unacceptable. There is a serious dilemma with regards to the now “acceptable” toaiva. We should be mekarev those who fall victim to this, but not by excusing, permitting, or encouraging their behavior or lifestyle. In congruence with this statement, Boteach has a point. But he clearly goes too far in his degree of acceptance of something the Torah addresses as more than an issur, but directing us to react with revulsion.
This question requires daas Torah. And when I image just who I might consider asking, I come up with quite a few names. Funny, though, Boteach is not on the list.
couldn’t have said it any better…great job, Rabbi Katz.
Boteach is a moral criminal. Personally, I do side with Rav Yehuda Levin. I would definitely advocate stoning them, as long as the Sanhedrin said to do it, as we are commanded to do. Give me the first stone.
I don’t care how or what someone thinks about or has desires for. When they act them out, we should be like Pinchas and spear them thru the kishkes.
If it was in my shul and there are intermarried people, then yes I want them both thrown out in the middle of davening if need be.
I’m sick and tired of hearing about tikun olam and ahavas Yisroel. I do not believe that what G-d had in mind was to be tolerant of all the things He already told us to eliminate. Years ago here in Baltimore, HaRav Schwab ordered that nobody could be a member of his shul (Shearith Israel) if they were not a Shomer Shabbos. I can’t even imagine what this gaon would have said if he knew a member who was shomer Shabbos was an admitted homosexual. I hope it would have been “get out of my shul you disgusting heathen!”
Why does this issue all of a sudden have a special status over other legally prohibited consensual unions? What changed in America?
There is a shul in Boro Park whose Rav doesn’t hold by the Eruv. If you hold by the Eruv and carry or use a stroller on Shabbos he will throw you out of his shul.
150 years ago in America, there were shuls which debated the propriety of allowing mechallelei Shabbos to be called to the Torah, and which also refused those who were married to non-Jews to be buried in their cemeteries.
THE COMMUNIST GOALS PUBLISHED IN AMERICA IN THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. 1963
-25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV. [ textbooks][‘Break down [family] standards of morality’] [MTV, cable & “R” rated trash.]
’26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural, healthy.”
This is why the in your face type for homosexuality. Look who surrounds obama
Another thing yesterday in Connecticut they arrest a man for having sex with a horse.
Is this also agree with Rabbi Schmuely?
We are against different sects of Mormons that practice paligomy why is this wrong.
This is not forbid in the 7 mitzvos bnei noach or the TOrah. Yet in the states
they are openly hostile to having more than one wife but gay unions is okay.
Can anybody explain this>
“Where does a civil union or gay marriage for that matter, conflict with Sheva Mitzvos bnei noach?”
The prohibition of sexual immorality applicable to the entire corpus of mankind includes male copulation with animals, corpses and other men. The primary reason given by the Torah for the destruction of metropolitan Sodom was the institutionalization of amorality. The laws of Sodom allowed interspecies matrimony, and non-consensual male rape. Read Me’am Loez on the parsha for an inclusive compilation of sources and commentary.
Is there data to show that civil unions or gay marriage increase the occurrence of the actual aveira, (mishkav zachar)?
There are several studies demonstrating a virulent contagent effect of homosexuality in animals, wherein animals influence others toward male homosexuality. Another interesting study showed that animal groups in close proximity to large concentrated groups of human homosexuals were more likely to exhibit male homosexuality in animal populations where the behavior was not observed in populations outside the area.
To #13
Unfortunately you’re right. Kids with serious problems are embarassed to go to Ari Katz, he is of no help to them.
The fact is, that it is a huge problem in our community, with so many kids who have no desire to the opposite sex. It breaks the heart of any Heimishe Social Worker.
The real question is, why isn’t this problem addressed anywhere in our Talmud.
If we can put this enigma together with so many Halochos, where we clearly say that we must follow Scientific facts known today, although they were not known in prior generations, then we could say that, it was never known, that there are such people who are naturally different sexually, and nothing will ever change them.
Logic would follow that the Torah is only talking to a person who is straight, and is always with women, and just wants to try it with a man for the fun of trying something different. (Note the words in the Posuk, “Mishkevei Ishoh”.)
Helping these hundreds of kids is probably a bigger Mitzvah then looking for a Heter for the salmon where the scientists found worms.
Shatzmatz – I never understood this issue – putting being PC aside – if one is genuinely frum and comes to his rabbi that his yetzer hara for a women is overwhelming – will the rabbi permit it? And if it is for cheeseburgers, would the rabbi permit it? Better yet, can the rabbi permit it? Empathize – absolutely yes, but permit it? So, the person is stuck with dealing with this issue – a serious issue indeed – his whole life. My heart goes out to him – but if he is really frum then this will be his defining nisayon in life – who can imagine his reward in the worl to come. But we can’t cut the Torah to fit. Hashem wanted his to deal with this. Perhaps, according to R’ Chaim Vital’s mihalech, he needs to be misaken for a previous gilgal. But why are we whitewashing a serious challenge and making it kosher?? People have to deal with cancer, war, death of a loved one.. add this very challenging nisyon to the list.
But can someone explain why this can’t be called for what it is – a difficult nisyon that one needs to deal with – AND not to justify it an define one’s entire being as as a person of that orientation???
So many of our kinder are commiting suicide because we refuse to accept them. We force them to marry, knowing their unhappiness for so many years, yet we say it “doesn’t happen in our community.” Thank you, Rabbi Boteach, for having a little understanding of their situations.
I am interested to see what Shmuley B. will say as response.
to announce publicly to disregard two holy commandment’s that r part of the 613 is horrific and puts shame to the Torah as if not all the mitzvos are meant to taken seriously and a likely trend will follow to 610 ,609 ect. heaven forbid
The in your face is homosexuality today; and that is the reason they must demostrate in Yerusalem. I am totally against homosexuality however if you are chas v’sholem caught up in this sin why do you want the whole world to know. Why is that so important. It is important so you take the guilt away from the sinner. Rav Avigdor Miller
zt”l said Guilt is a good thing [not excessive guilt] is cause a person to refrain. By all the in your face it takes away their guilt. Well if I miss davening I feel guilty and make corrections not just skip again
To summarize a peer reviewed scientific study on homosexuality in cattle and oxen:
Acute overproduction of a certain hormone (GnRH) can be ‘smelled’ by other animals, causing the animals in proximity to also overproduce the same hormones. (In a way analogous to female ovulation cycle synchronization).
Overproduction of these special hormones results in homosexual relationships and long-term pairing of the affected males. Injecting males with GnRH has the same effect.
This effect spreads throughout large proximate areas of the animals and multiplies.
FACT: among sufferers of congenital anosmia, there are no male homosexual couples!
Homosexual behavior among males is contagious via hormonal changes that influence others by inhalation, hence we see clearly the wisdom of the position of the Torah.
Poster # 19 (Yourkidding) Your analogy fails here, due to the fact that non-Jews are also prohibited from “Legally” (i.e.; making it legal, as in gay marriage.) practicing homosexuality and bestiality, among other deviant behavior. Your last line, though , is on the mark. That those who are most adamantly opposed to this kind of practice are among the lowliest of society. That apparent coincidence lies not in their ideology but in expressing their opposition. Violence.
I find that the fact that this discussion has come to this format is the Chilul Hashem.
Rather than write a rebuttal to the Wall Street Journal to Rabbi Shmuley Boteach’s comments you have chosen VIN as your venue. The people who read VIN, are AWARE of the halachic issues.
I read the article last Friday and I am not in a posttiion to comment about the article –
but giving the article the attention it should have not deserves.
our community is now no different then many others we have our problems and we sweep them under a carpet and say they dont exist we have become the most intolerant people around and each group now says only i know what god wants
we have children killing themselves, we have hundreds of great kids running away from ourv live style, we have child abuse in our schools, shuls and homes, and yes we have homosexuality in our community just as we have frummer yidden swopping mates or cheating on their spouse. instead of yelling at the messenger
what do our frummer leadership propose to try to end these abuses and change whats happening answer NOTHING because if they say nothing in their minds it doesnt exist
Although I am Chassidish, I agree that one should be mekarev ALL yidden. I have a hunch that if they keep Shabbos, kosher, and all mitzvot, and KNOW that homosexuality is really wrong but it takes time, etc., they will eventually come around completely.
One thing you all need to realize is that the concept of “Kol Yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh” has much responsibility attached to it. We are responsible for each other in the same way a parent is for a child. If another Jew is steering off the derech, it is your job and my job to steer them back. Turning our eyes away and burying our heads in the sand is not acceptable. Whether it means an invite for Shabbos or a smack on the face, you have to do something. You have to take a chance and stand up for what’s right. If it’s a Rabbi Levin or a poshiter Yid, it makes no difference. As Orthodox Jews, we do NOT accept the unacceptable for the sake of peace and love. That has no place in our lives, nor should it.
If it means throwing rocks at cars driving thru our neighborhood on Shabbos, so be it. This is NOT a chillul Hashem! A chillul Hashem is running away like a scared little child, afraid to make waves, afraid to say something, so worried about what “they” might say. Calling our defense of Torah a chillul Hashem is an oxymoron of the highest degree. Let them call us intolerant. Let them call us whatever they want. We know we’re right, and we don’t need to pander for approval….continued..
Reply to #25 (Kanaim)
I respectfully submit you have crossed the line. Its rare that so many yidden would be moved by such a vile and hateful posting on VIN and actually want to daven for terrible things to happen to a poster, but you have motivated me and hopefully others for the ebeshter to impose on you the fate you seek for others whose derech you despise. Your sinas chinam will haunt you for the rest of your life. Hashem yarachem on your family since they will be the ones who suffer.
to #21
The lubavitcher rebbe did address this issue..I think (heard about this years ago so don’t remember exactly correct me if I am wrong) that its like an illness, needs certain therapy to make the illness go away. The rebbe did tell people exactly what they have to do to try and remedy the situation
I am sure other rabonim deal/dealt with this issue.
….continuing….
Everyone asks why known tzadikim had to die in the Holocaust. Some posit that perhaps they weren’t really tzadikim after all. I say nonsense. I believe that a gezeirah was made in the Bais Din shel Mailah that there was to be a churban on the Jews of Europe, and a churban on the klal means just that, the entire community. The tzadikim were held accountable for NOT standing up to the assimilation and transgressions of their brethren. So, the next time you chose to “loz em gayin” or let them go, and mind your own business instead of saying a loud “NO”, and chose to allow abominations to flourish, look at what happened even to true tzadikim who kept silent or didnt do more. For a Rabbi Levin to stand up in public and scourge the immoral animals in our society takes real guts, and he should be rewarded, not lambasted. Take responsibility for your fellow Jews and make it your business!
Call your relative who invited you to their kid’s wedding where they are marrying a Gentile and let them know in no uncertain terms that they have totally disgusted you and you will not attend. When you see 2 guys walking hand in hand, spit on the ground so they see and hear it.
I didnt say spit on them or beat them. Just do enough to make it know clearly that you do not accept it. If nothing else, do it for the selfish reason of not wanting to suffer for their transgressions. Make it all about you if you have to. Then it really IS your business. We are not isolated individuals. So some guy sleeping with his “partner” affects you and me as well. All this nonsense with women rabbis, lesbian and gay rabbis, gay marriages, gays having kids, it’s all WORSE than Sodom and Gomorra!
I also feel that he is off the mark here and has been on many occassions. Anyone who has followed his career or watched his show understands why people of any faith can be attracted to his genuine warmth and abilility and need to care and assist however in doing so, he has transgressed on very basic religious rules that as a frum jew and a Rabbi he would not do in his normal household or neighborhood. It would have been easy for him to explain various aspects of his life and responsibilities as a frum jew or his producers could have explained these rules to the people he would have been meeting and dealing with. What kind of role model was he for his own children when they watch his show and he is shaking hands and actually hugging the women he is working with and helping?
Where does he have the right and actually the unmitigated gaul to do that when the basic and simplest explanations that a Rabbi can not touch a woman other than his wife can easily be explained by his producers before the show even gets started with the new group involved.
So yes he bends the rules and does so to please the public and we the religous folks can see right through that.
you are all so hateful. I am no expert but most of you haters are so concerned with the external that you don’t look at the person inside. And you know what it alienates people, its what drives people to go off the derech completely, because you don’t appreciate individuality. I dont usually read this site anymore, its way too extreme for me, but I thought I should post something here. I would rather see a nice gay jew with good middos then some fake yeshivish looking douche.
Reply to Kanaim
We will “spit on the ground” when you walk by while hopefully seeking to change the behavior of those who are not shomrei torah umitzvot. As another poster noted, the pain and suffering you seek to impose on other will b’yh be imposed on you. Those of us who “take responsibility” for other yiddin will do it with the love and kindness of ahavas yisroel. Your own fate is sealed by your own words.
Homosexuality is indeed a disease, as the Lubavitcher Rebbe pointed out – but neither bashing nor Boteach/Reform style acceptance is the answer. A gay couple who openly proclaims pride in their gay lifestyle really has no place in a shul – but for those who are fighting it or living quietly and not flaunting it, the answer is “don’t ask don’t tell”.
On the other hand, the probably apocryphal story about the posek who said that gay suicide is a mitzvah is disgusting. The person who told it is a naval birshus haTorah who has no neemanus, but if it did occur, it is even worse than the vapid nonsense and acceptance of toeva which the touchy feely son and chief money launderer for a California arms dealer advocates in his latest attempt to get attention.
Not too long ago, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach wrote an op-ed piece, in which he criticized Donald Trump, by alleging that Trump went from wife to wife, and showed them off as “trophy wives”. I think that Boeach’s criticism of Trump was unjustified for several reasons. First of all, Trump’s personal life is his business; secondly, Trump has a lot of Yidden employed in his organization, including frum Yidden; third, several years ago, when Trump’s limo broke down on the way back from Atlantic City, a frum Jew, who was very mechanically inclined, stopped and rendered repairs to Trump’s car, and fixed it. Trump was so impressed with that individual, that he actually paid the person’s mortgage off!
I have only one thing to say to Mr Boteach (he is not worthy to be called Rabbi with such ideology): you no longer represent the Torah view. You said:
“There are 613 commandments in the Torah. One is to refrain from gay sex. Another is for men and women to marry and have children. So when Jewish gay couples tell me they have never been attracted to members of the opposite sex and are desperately alone, I tell them, “You have 611 commandments left. That should keep you busy. Now, go create a kosher home. Turn off the TV on the Sabbath and share your meals with many guests. Pray to G-d three times a day for you are his beloved children. He desires you and seeks you out.“
Did you know that it was written in Chazal: “one who deny a single mitzvah of the Torah is as if he had denied the entire Torah.”
You cannot say to a gay that despite violating the prohibition of homosexuality, “You being a gay? It’s not a problem. Observe the other Mitzvos, and everything will be ok.” This is not the Torah way of thinking. A man should fight his pulse. Making statements as yours endanger the beautiful hard work of organization such as JONAH (Judaism Offers New Alternatives to Homosexuality)…
I think we would all agree that for homosexuals, their desires are from their yetzer hara to which they succumb. However, to argue that since we ALL have a yetzer hara to which we all sometimes succumb, that their engaging in homosexual acts makes them no worse than any one else is a red herring. Allow me an analogy:
Let us examine a thief. I think we would all recognize a difference between people who steal because they are desperate and would other wise starve from people who steal, even though they know it is wrong but cannot control themselves (maybe it’s the thrill or whatever) and still yet from the people who steal, do not believe there is anything wrong with stealing and not only declare that stealing is aperfectly valid way of life and even demand that WE acknowledge that it is valid.
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To kanaim #61
Who says that YOUR way of standing up against transgressions of our brethren is the correct way?
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was mekarev rechokim with love, not with spitting on the ground when he saw abominations.
You remind me of Milhouse.
1. It may be worthwhile realizing what audience Boteach was addressing/writing to in his op-ed. In the context of the WallStreetJournal reader, it may be a very appropriate article–it is not addressed to the frum audience.
2. No one realizes what to-eva means–look at “Unklos” in Ekev–Toavas Hashem is translated as “me-rachek me-Hashem”. Abomination is not something ugly–it is something that puts a distance between you and HKB”H–the opposite of Kedoshim Tihyu–to be kedoshim and close to Hashem. To’eva is the same root as “lo sesa-ev Edomi”–
3. Boteach is consistent with what he wrote when he was still in Oxford 15 years ago about homosexuals in dealing with them and the concept of kedusho.
4. last and not least–Boteach may not be my rov, nor yours, and you don’t have to agree with him–nor invite him to your shul, and sometimes he can goof too. you don’t have to pillory him if his hashkofos don’t go over well in BoroPark.
have a good day.
because you are saying that being a gay is not a problem as far as you observe other Mitzvos, so why change? So what’s the need of organizations such as JONAH?
I don’t agree with terrorism against gay peoples, but as a “Rabbi”, your attitude is irresponsable. The Lubavitcher Rebbe and the Satmar Rebbe were ohev kol yisroel but they never compromised with the Halacha and Torah issues. What’s written is written and you cannot deny it and trying to transform the Torah to accomodate your public is disgusting, misguiding and irresponsable.
R. Shlomo Luria, in Yam Shel Shlomo, commenting on Bava Kamma 4:9, wrote:
“Rather we see from here that we are obligated to give ourselves over and sanctify G-d’s name and if one, G-d forbid, changes one law it is as if he denied the Torah of Moses… To [lie and] say that one who is innocent is guilty or vice versa is like denying the Torah of Moses. What is the difference between denying one word and denying the entire Torah?”
Think about that Mr. Boteach.
As a Lubavitcher, I’m used to deal with non-religious Jews. And when they have a problem with a point in Halacha, I help them to get there, step by step, but not in telling them “It’s ok!”