New York – This was a direct quote from Yeshiva of Philadelphia Rosh HaYeshiva Rabbi Shmuel Kaminetsky Shlit’a who took precious time from his busy schedule and shared his da’as Torah with listeners on Thursday night during the Project YES conference call titled, “Purim Parenting: Keeping Our Children Safe and Sober,”
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Rabbi Yakov Horowitz asked the Rosh Yeshiva to address this matter because many people who heard about our Purim program had asked to clarify the words of our chazal (sages) “Chayav einish l’besumei be’puria ad deloi yoda bein arur Haman l’baruch Mordechai” which loosely translated says, that one is obligated to drink [on Purim] until he cannot discern between Haman and Mordechai.
“Chas v’shalom (Heaven forbid) that our Torah would consider getting drunk to be a mitzvah!” said Reb Shmuel. He explained that the word l’besumei is derived from the root word which means to sniff something – and said that this means that one should have only “a whiff” of drinking (wine only; he was clear to state).
The Rosh Yeshiva also shed light on the words “ad deloi yoda bein arur Haman l’baruch Mordechai” and said that when one sings verses of a song when he is in a heightened state of simcha (joy) he occasionally will sing the verses in incorrect order – meaning that he will sing the verse of Arur Haman in the place of the verse of Baruch Mordechai. It is inconceivable, he stated, that this is to be taken to condone drunkenness – which is in direct contrast to the teachings of our Torah.
Rav Kaminetsky Shlita is mechadish a huge chidush on the loshon “l’besumei” as the shoresh of sniffing and smelling. I never thought of being medakdek this loshon in this manner. Yashar Koach !!! This should have been taught for years. Now can we teach it to our buchrim? They will understand it but they might have a kasheh on it and reject the man d’amar….
Dunno, I love getting drunk once a year, my wife loves it (she’s the designated driver), it makes the whole Purim much much much more lebedig, otherwise it is farshlufen. If you can do it responsibly, why not? And the “ad d’lo yuda” is a very clear implication that one should drink until they can’t discern etc….
Sorry, but good intentions of the Rabbis (keeping young ones safe) should not be thrust upon the mature, responsible adults who want to enjoy this unique chag…
how do u explain rashi in megila
LHISHTAKER byaiyn
forsure only if its lshem shomaim
lshem mizvo
While I applaud the efforts of the Rabbanim to promote safety and responsibility among our youth, this is nothing more than pure revisionism. To say that the simple meaning of chazal does not mean to drink on purim is patently false. If our Rabbonim can take such liberties, what is our argument against Reform rabbis?
Thing is many big poskim disagree, although there are many achronim who pasken like reb shmuel others aurgue in just as strong a tone. Bottom line יש על מי לסמוך. Bottoms up!
the halacha is to drink! how can we take a rabbi seiously if he changes halacha for political correctness. I am not saying children should get drunk and there are ways around it but be honest!
What a pashuta and glatta pshat to a mamer chazal. I will iyh drink a reviis of wine and be happy by singing and dancing
Maybe sniff refers to using an illegal substance to get “high“ ?????
O Oo Ooo this may give a whole new meaning for Ahhhaammm Sniffing? On Purim? Forget it ill stick to Drinking….much safer….
huh???? and this that the Rambam ad shyardeim mshiruso is against Torah??!!! Ch”V!!!!
and the shulchan aruch??? and kama gdolim vtovim mimen……..???!!!!!!
and the Maasa of Rabba and Rav Zeira???!!!!
Its one thing to say that you don’t wan’t to pasken that you must drink……!!!! but to erase everyone that does and 2,500 years of jewish history, that I just don’t get, sorry!!
Kaminetsky Shlit’a pretty much emulates the Ben Ish Chai in what he is saying, see the Ben Ish Chai’s perush on the Megilla. Additionally in today’s lifestyle, getting drunk where you cannot discern the many hazards of modern life, is downright dangerous. Ushmartem es nafshoseichem should be considered. Every year we hear of needless tragic incidences.
I am not m’kaneh you dissenters of one of the preeminent g’dolay ha’dor!!!
I get the feeling that this distiguished Rosh Yeshiva had intentions to just keep his Bochurim safe, and his “uptaich” of the Chazal was instructional for his bochurim – to drink responsibly and to a minimum. In today’s day and age, and yes take into account the concept of yeridas hadoros, good frum bochurim in the year 2010 in general don’t know how to act and often stray negatively when in a drunken stupor. When yidden, in generations gone by, got drunk on Purim it was a completely different scenario. They would dance with all their hearts in holiness and simcha and didn’t have the dangers of drunk driving. This is perhaps a minhag that we should NOT try to fulfill to the maximum- especially our heiligeh yeshiva bochurim! Bochurim have been gravely injured and R”L killed because of drinking too much on Purim. That said, the Rosh Yeshiva’s pshat isn’t one too hard to hear. Afterall the mitzvah of U’Shmartem Me’od Es Nafshoseichem is a mitzvah on Purim too – and it’s De’oraysa!
while I do agree that one should never get smashed drunk and i do agree that these days are different then the time of chazal for they had a much greater level of yiras shamayim then our generation and when they drank allot it only made them more spiritual….and they also didn’t have to worry about drinking and driving. however for some reason i feel like these rabbis are just trying to use the halacha to shape their opinions and i highly doubt there is any truth to what the Rav said because it is very clear in the talmud that “one should “hishtaker”-which doesnt mean sniff. i think the truth should be said it is a mitzva to get drunk until one is in a state to not know the difference in-between haman and mordichai, however this is a mitzva that can only be kept if it wont lead to other negative things like, acting like an animal, missing tfillos, putting your life in danger if you may drive after, causing yourself to get sick ect… so to Jews of 2010 i think we aren’t able to keep this mitzvah without being over many averos so keep it sober or if not drink but don’t think it is the torah thing to do
This rav lives off the public opinion ,he must say this to keep people in his yeshiva and to support his pesach cruises and his trips around the world.If he preached the real truth ,most people wouldnt even listen to him.When moshe rabbenu had to appoint leaders,it says(parshas yisro perek 18 posuk 21)yisro advised him to appoint men of wealth.So they wouldnt have to flatter anyone or to hakir panim.How can anyone change what seems so obviously clear,get drunk on purim till you dont know the difference between cursed is haman and blessed is mordechai.I lived among goyim as well.It is a tremendous kiddush hashem when yidden get drunk,they dont get violent, aggresive ,or anything like that.look at the nations after they get drunk (super bowls)(mardi gras).They always start looting killing,and engaging in liscentious activities.I dont even know how the rav could have said you should sniff wine instead of drinking it.It is for a reason that chazal said if your rav looks like a malach elokim listen to him.rav moshe feinstein looked like a malach.does anyone know what he said about this,Or the steipler zatzal
Without question, this falls into the category of “Eis La’asos LaShem”. Kudos to Rabbi Kaminetsky for stepping up to the plate and having the fortitude to come out with this.
Maybe VIN readers have not seen kids drunk lying in the street. Anyone that has seen this spectacle will decide to possibly have their kids risk not being yotze this one mitzvah.
I read in the book about the steipler zatzal that someone asked him on purim after he drank .and he gave an answer that he wouldnt have given otherwise I think they asked him if he knew more torah than another gadol and he said i think i know a little more.i forget the exact words but it was something like that.
ok fine!!! but reb shmuel berenbaum ztv”l used to say “oif purim dus is nur ad delo yoda ubber simchas toirah trink un trink un trinks!!!” in english that means on purim its just until ad delo yoda but on simchas torah u drink and drink and drink! i dont wanna argue on harav kamenetsky but i dont think we will burn in hell for being soimech on reb shmuel berenbaom st”l!!!
I think Reb Shmuel’s statement was obviously taken out of context. If he was talking about Rabbi Horowitz, he was probably talking about the people and situations Rabbi Horowitz deals with at YES. And I don’t think Reb Shmuel has a Pesach cruise.
The Mishna brurah says clearly that drinking to the point that you miss doing mitzvos is assur. Rav Kaminetzky Shlit”a didn’t make up a new pshat.
Rav Shmuel is Paskening like the Shittos that Assur drinking and he’s informing the public of his Psak. Each person should now go ask their own Rav. I personally think the drinking on Purim, especially in Yeshivos, is an annual Chilul Hashem but the Rebbeim and the Roshei Yeshiva don’t have the power to stop the Bachurim and it’s just spun out of control. This then carries over to the Baala Batim who have graduated from the Yeshivos and try to recreate their Yeshiva days. I think for the most part people drink so much as an excuse to escape from their anxiety. Rav Yaakov Weinberg zt”l said a similar Pshat in Libisumei – he said it meant to be festive, to celebrate – which means with a little wine, a little joking, etc. – not to get drunk.- maybe just a little uninhibited. Rav YM Kulefsky zt”l when he was Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel Paskened like the Rishonim/Achronim that is was Assur to get drunk (I believe that was the Lashon – Bais Ephraim and the Bach? Rabeinu Ephraim?) It’s a fact that drinking goes on and I’m embarrassed about every year. I look at the scene of drunks and think to myself, “Does it make sense that this is what the Ribono Shel Olam had in mind?”
Great. Now people like those who commented here are going to drink on Purim and be over Rav Kamintesky’s psak…BMEZID!
I listened to the telecast last night and was surprised how much focus was put on the Halachic view rather than how dangerous, how potentially life threatening drinking can be……especially for teens. One of the speakers mentioned that the teens need more time consuming activities. Well? Thats only partially true. Drinking is but a symptom of the real problem. Stuffing the problems through sports, art, entertainment isn’t as bad as drugs alcohol, but nevertheless, the core issues aren’t being addressed. How do you get a teen who’s suffering internally to talk about core issues? Come at him/her at their level. Not as a rebbe or any other authority figure. The best people to talk to these kids are adults (like myself) who have suffered through alcoholism as a teen and now as an adult is sober for years.
there is a famous chakira from reb yisrael salanter if the the mitzva is to drink and the shiur kiyum hamitzva is when you get drunk. or the mitzva is to drink and when you are drunk you are patur because a shikur is patur from mitvos. the practical difference being if one drinks, gets drunk and then sobers up does he still have to keep on drinking. interesting that we dont have much halacha or lomdus from r yisrael salanter mostly mussar but this is his chakira. l’chaim
I don’t understand why R. Kaminetsky had to go engage in linguisitc sophistry to reach his conclusion that people ought not drink to excess on Purim. First there is the interpretation of the Rema which could have more easily been emphasized than distorting the plain meaning of the text; drink a small bit more than one is used to and go to sleep. When one sleeps he doesn’t know the difference between Haman and Mordechai. Secondly, even if one adopts Rashi’s view of l’hishtaker (I believe that Rashi said with wine only becuase he was a vintner, and wine was probably the alcoholic beverage most readily available to him), like any mitzvah it should be practiced if it is safe to do so. In 2010 America, it is not safe for young boys and men to get drunk, and therefore once should not do so.
I think he is right concerning under age drinking.But once someone is of the legal drinking age(there is wisdom to be found in the nations) then he must get drunk.
i have nothing against the rav, but for 1000 years rabbis have been saying that getting drunk on purim is proper. of course he is a great great rav but who is he to contradict all those before him and say that getting drunk on purim is an aveira?
If we could just put aside our ta’avah to drink and the learn the sugya like any other in Shas we could come to a clear conclusion. The Rema writes that one can be yotzei by drinking a little more wine than one is accustomed to (like 2 cups instead of 1). The Mishnah Berurah quotes the Pri Megadim that everyone should follow this Rema. That’s it, case closed. For some strange reason we follow every Mishnah Berurah but when it comes to drinking we totally ignore the heiligah Rema and Chofetz Chaim and prefer to act like animals. Don’t let your ta’avah cloud your view of what Hashem really wants from you!
If any of you show up on my doorstep rip-roaring drunk, the most tsedakah you’ll get is the mother of all lectures on substance abuse. Staggering around the neighborhood like idiots sets a HORRIBLE example to our kinderlach. Don’t think you can justify your irresponsible behavior with halacha.
Livsumei does not mean drunk. shikur means drunk. livsumei is a state of “intoxication”. Intoxication does not mean drunk, it means to be in an altered state of consciousness.
One can become intoxicated through numerous mediums, happiness can be intoxicating, love can be intoxicating. b’samim can be intoxicating.
Rashi, defined livsumei as “Al Hayain” which could be interpreted to mean that only wine can be used on Purim (NOT vodka, beer, whiskey, scotch, etc etc”. However the participle Ha before the word yaim needs to be looked at. Rashi does not write Al yain but al hayayin. Mekublim have only one reference to Hayain, THE wine, which is the wine of the Etz Hachaim, from before ma’aseh bereshis.
The mitzvah is to become very highly aware of the Purim miracle and the presence of Hashem
There is no mitzvah to get stupidrunk on Purim.
Purim Sameach.
If the chazal could not have anticipated the problems with excessive drinking on Purim, why is it such a big deal for a Gadol with the stature of Rav Kaminentsky to paskin that whatever they may have believed hundreds of years ago is no longer relevant and we must now follow new rules. He can do it respectfully without saying the Chazal were “wrong”; just that the minhag must change with the times.
#58 and 2 you have to be first a yodah then you can maybe be lo yodah
http://yehudamondfoundation.org/lechaim.asp
I’m not saying wether or not I think an adult man should be drinking on purim, everything needs to be done with shechal. Perhaps allowing your young son to see you drunk and out of control is NOT the best idea in such an awful time period. We all know the dangers our children are up against. PLEASE, just think before you do something this purim!
There are different types/levels of shikrus. There is an expression in Torah literature denoting extreme shikrus, called ‘shikrus de’Lot’ (being drunk as Lot, Avrohom avinu’s nephew). So perhaps Rav Shmuel is saying, as well as Rashi, that it is assur to be shiker like Lot. But some limited drinking might be permissible. However, getting inTOXICated is toxic, chas vesholem
the second the chasidim have fun the litfacks have to mess it up
R Noach Weinberg used to stand and say l’chaim, over and over, and say arur Haman l’baruch Mordechai until he couldn’t say it straight. This is the problem with litvishe rabomim, they think because their semicha is more strenuous than a MO or the Chabad bsic semicha, they can go around and say getting drunk on torah is hepech the torah. just because you’re rosh yeshiva of a sub par yeshiva doesn’t mean you can say rashi, rambam and MINHAG YISROEL are hepech torah!! Once again I don’t believe any of these “Rabbonim” are learning lishmo bclal other wise they would have more covod for RASHI which is poshut emes !!!
Mishna brura has been around for a while. Chofetz chaim states “kodem shenishtaker”. i guess that means before you sniff! l’chaim! to that.
Having learned in Philly years ago I can tell you that every Purim most of the boys were drunk. In fact many times I was in Reb Shmuel’s house on Purim and most of the boys there were drunk. Reb Shmuel looked on very amused.
tell this to all my chushiva rabbeim who have been getting plastered for years and years. I cannot stand these public notices about this. BE SAFE. but drink.
Its one thing to say that the mitzvah has resulted in the opposite effect that it intended to, therefore you should do other mitvah’s so ‘bishleimis’ first, and leave that for others. But its quite another thing to give new meanings to century-old beliefs, and halacha. I don’t know, the kuvod of rav shmuel is big enough, not to disagree with such a Gudol, but its fair to ask “maheichen Dantu”? (From where did you sanctioned it?) Like every baal din has the right to after bais din sanctions something
Its one thing to say that the mitzvah has resulted in the opposite effect that it intended to, therefore you should do other mitvah’s so ‘bishleimis’ first, and leave that for others. But its quite another thing to give new meanings to century-old beliefs, and halacha. I don’t know, the kuvod of rav shmuel is big enough, not to disagree with such a Gudol, but its fair to ask “maheichen Dantu”? (From where did you sanctioned it?) Like every baal din has the right to after bais din sanctions something
There is factual difference in what constitutes sakanah today, and our gedolim must take a stand on that. One of Reb Shmuel’s statements was that the very interpretation that livsumei means getting drunk is itself an aveiroh. That is not something that is a current development, and a quick review of the poskim indicates that there was NEVER a halacha to get “drunk”. It was to drink to achieve a physical component of simcha, not sloppy drunkeness.
I am not amused by the naysayers who wish to claim that Reb Shmuel was changing or being mevatel a minhag Yisroel. Nothing close. Just that there are way too many who mistakenly believe they are being mekayem the halacha by fulfilling their own personal wish to get “smashed”. Reb Shmuel says that this is not the halacha, and it is an aveiro.
It could be that you can be yoteh the mitzvah as the RY suggested, but surely the mehadrin min hamehadrin (the more stringent who enhance the mitzvah) would be moisef v’holech (continue onward to add in quantity and quality of the drinking).
I am mechanech my children in this mitzvah from age 6 – as I was in der alte heim (old country back home), an B”H es shat zay nisht (they are not badly affected from this annual drinking).
This business of making fun of roshei yeshivos is disgusting. Who are you people to disagree with the rosh yeshiva? The orsh yeshiva stated clearly the root wrod and explained pshat and you have the nerve to make all the comments. Why doesn’t thie editor on this site moderate this site a bit better and refuse to put on any comments that are dergitory towards rabanim and roshei yeshivos?
There is too much mashkeh in gevisse kehillos mit ah tikkun after shacharis. Perhaps there should be a ban on trinken nokhn davenin shacharis especially
when people plan to drive a car and that is a sakanah and against the law.
the Rav refers to those at risk. ask an ex-addict and he will tell you that no one ever become an alcoholic from drinking on purim. No One. i think in sch a time, and such situations it is our obligation to get the advice from ex- addicts with many years of sobriety who leads a life of torah and yirat shamayim, and they are out there. indeed few but are exists. i know that no “professional” can relate and understand addicts, only ex addict can. and maybe r shmuel, r yakov horwitz should ask those poeple for an opinion.
“dor dor v’dorshav…dor dor v’chachamav.” In every generation hashem places specific leaders which are tailor made for that specific tkefua since sheshes yemei bereshis. “Yiftach b’doro k’Shmuel b;doro” and the right to darshan and guide based on torah values and ideals…with the mekoros supporting their assesment of the present needs of that tekufa are in their hands. ( if you ask whats the difference between this and reform doctrine i say there is an answer;however this is not the forum for it, neither is that question an answer to invalidate the above stated yesod) One may not like/appreciate/agree the rosh yeshivas statement, but must frame it in the proper system of the understanding of our leadership for the past many thousand years.(Mordechai was mevatel many mitzvos doraissa and derabbonon while being gozer a 3 day tzom on pesach!…imagine what the bloggers were saying then!) May Hashem guide us and bring only shalom and bracha to ll of klal yisroel. a freilichen purim to all!
Why do we make a brucha motzei shobbos “borei minei bsamim?” Perhaps for the same reason the Rav Kaminetzky is stating. The Rav is making a big chidush. I need to think about this more closely. Does anyone know if the Noam Elimelech has a peirush on this inyan? I would love to learn what he was mechadish on Purim.
Rav Shmuel Shlita is really not being mechadeish something. Anyone who ever learned by Rav Pam zt”l knows that his Purim chagiga had no holilos and he did not appreciate bochurim getting shikur and acting like drunken fools. He would be totally serious and would hardly crack a smile. He would sing a special purim niggun that was quite somber. But the bottom line was you felt the kiddusha just being there.